T5 Hybrid conversion: would you be interested?

[and_pir]

Hello people of the forum.
I don't know if this is the right place,... hope this post will have the maximal visibility.

Soooo, I came across this site (www.life-save.eu) that is about a spin-off company from the university of Salerno, italy, now is a project of the European community, and it's about the conversion of the existing vehicles to full hybrids vehicles. YIAY!!!!
I did my research and it's something very old, there are some more websites owned by such company and it exists since the 2013 (they were not connected to the EU that time), when they presented a fully functional Fiat Punto hybrid; but since then they never managed do go further.
The conversion consists into the installation of 2 electro-engines in the wheel (like Peugeot, they tested the michelin engines, each one is 80ps if I'm not wrong, so 160ps from the electric side), the battery and even some solar panels placed over the car's top (pretty ideological, especially if you think that many 4rschl0cher would enjoy breaking them).
The car can work as:
1) normal termic car
2) fully electric car (think about driving your 2.5TDI in the downtowns where there is the diesel fahrverbot), 35/50km of autonomy, at 50km/h (it's up to the battery pack you choose, you can get even more...)
3) hybrid, that means that the electric engines will work together with the termic engine so it lowers the fuel consumption
4) like the last above but with a 4x4 function, to let you go where the normal 2wd can't go.

As I said, now, 2020 a.d., they didn't manage yet to put a conversion kit on the market; they just converted a polo 6r during the last spring, and without the solar panels this time.
Now, just think to the many vehicles they could have saved since 2013...

About the reasons of their incredible delay, I can imagine that they are having a hard life since in italy you can't modify your car, above all if the carmaker doesn't give you a written permission. TBH nobody of the so called "powers" (politics, financers, eco-fascists, and so on...) has the interest on making this thing real; as opposite, they want you to throw away your ride and get a brand new full-electric one; so they are probably struggling with bureaucracy.

So I was thinking, if a proportionate number of you german T5 owners could be interested in something like this, we could try to contact this start up company in order to try to "force" them to give its attention to our vans, in place to some silly worthless small cars, and to make those guys to start to work for us at first into the german market in which this company can easily circumvent all the obstacles put by the corrupted italian breaucracies by going to one of the many TUV agencies (TUV nord, TUV sued, ....) where they will have get an ABE or gutachten or whatever needed (obviously only if they did their job properly by a technical POV).
Also, I think that hardly ppl will be interested into a 3/4000 euro conversion for a car like a polo 6r, that worths the same; while it surely makes sense for a T5 california or multivan BPC.
In this way, they will also start on making some real money, beyound the EU founds.

What do you think? Who could be interested?

 

[Multivantastisch]

I glaub I better stay bei the Verburners

 

[dnoermann]

I am interested. T5.2 CFCA

 

[gervais]

Also, I think that hardly ppl will be interested into a 3/4000 euro conversion for a car like a polo 6r, that worths the same; while it surely makes sense for a T5 california or multivan BPC.

Und was glaubst Du, was Du für 3-4000€ bekommst ? Die Controller für den Antrieb ohne Einbau? Spaß beiseite: Du unterschätzt die Kosten für die Elektrifizierung eines 3to. Fahrzeugs, vermutlich auch die erforderliche Battteriekapazität (Platzbedarf/Kosten) für

35/50km of autonomy, at 50km/h

Einfache Rechnung: Ein VW ID3 braucht bei 50km/h für 50km 5-6kWh (können auch 4 oder 7 sein). Na, dann rate mal, wieviel eine T5 2.5-3 Tonnen Schrankwand braucht, 12-15kWh/50km ? Vielleicht auch 20kWh/50km wenn es kälter wird, oder gar noch mehr ?

Optimistisch rechne ich für eine Kleinserien Batterie dieser Größe mit 500€/kWh inkl. BMS, zertifiziert auch mehr (Ja, auch hier gibt es Bürokratie) und da bist Du schon bei 6-8000€ für eine 16kWh Batterie. Dann brauchst Du noch Controller, Deine Motoren und ein Hybrid- und Lade-Management, sowie den erforderlichen elektrischen und mechanischen Umbau, u.A. Karosserie, Bremsanlage und die Abnahme des Gesamtsystems (ABE bekommst Du nicht) ! Sehr schnell bist Du bei 20-30000€ Umrüstungskosten in der Kleinserie. Ohne Fahrzeug, ohne Entwicklungskosten,ohne Profit. Vermutlich viel zu optimistisch gerechnet.

Und dafür willst Du einen alten T5 verwenden ? Kaufe lieber ein Neufahrzeug und macht das damit: Bei einer einfachen Transporter-Basis bist Du dann bei 70.000€, vorausgesetzt, Du findest jemand, der die einzelnen Gewerke günstig für Dich zusammenführt. Im späteren Betrieb, brauchst Du dann noch eine Firma, die Dir bei kleinserientypischen Fehlern weiterhilft, denn die Gewährleistung auf Einzelkomponenten hilft Dir nicht weiter.

What do you think? Who could be interested?

My personal guess: Nobody, because it´s all about costs vs. benefit.

 

[and_pir]

I glaub I better stay bei the Verburners

??? WTFikc? Sprechen you Esperanto? LOL I Ich liebe the mixture XD
You guys must be very much in multikulti, I see.
I've got the gas powered, so I too will stay with the evil gasoline type 98, this is just for the diesel guys.

Und was glaubst Du, was Du für 3-4000€ bekommst ? Die Controller für den Antrieb ohne Einbau? Spaß beiseite: Du unterschätzt die Kosten für die Elektrifizierung eines 3to. Fahrzeugs, vermutlich auch die erforderliche Battteriekapazität (Platzbedarf/Kosten) für

I took such data from a survey they put online. Thy posted 3000 teuros so I went up for "safety". Togheter such question, they were asking about crowfounding and likes.

Einfache Rechnung: Ein VW ID3 braucht bei 50km/h für 50km 5-6kWh (können auch 4 oder 7 sein). Na, dann rate mal, wieviel eine T5 2.5-3 Tonnen Schrankwand braucht, 12-15kWh/50km ? Vielleicht auch 20kWh/50km wenn es kälter wird, oder gar noch mehr ?

Optimistisch rechne ich für eine Kleinserien Batterie dieser Größe mit 500€/kWh inkl. BMS, zertifiziert auch mehr (Ja, auch hier gibt es Bürokratie) und da bist Du schon bei 6-8000€ für eine 16kWh Batterie. Dann brauchst Du noch Controller, Deine Motoren und ein Hybrid- und Lade-Management, sowie den erforderlichen elektrischen und mechanischen Umbau, u.A. Karosserie, Bremsanlage und die Abnahme des Gesamtsystems (ABE bekommst Du nicht) ! Sehr schnell bist Du bei 20-30000€ Umrüstungskosten in der Kleinserie. Ohne Fahrzeug, ohne Entwicklungskosten,ohne Profit. Vermutlich viel zu optimistisch gerechnet.

Und dafür willst Du einen alten T5 verwenden ? Kaufe lieber ein Neufahrzeug und macht das damit: Bei einer einfachen Transporter-Basis bist Du dann bei 70.000€, vorausgesetzt, Du findest jemand, der die einzelnen Gewerke günstig für Dich zusammenführt. Im späteren Betrieb, brauchst Du dann noch eine Firma, die Dir bei kleinserientypischen Fehlern weiterhilft, denn die Gewährleistung auf Einzelkomponenten hilft Dir nicht weiter.


My personal guess: Nobody, because it´s all about costs vs. benefit.

I can't tell you more, out the fact that if you want to fully convert a car, the actual price is 20.000/30.000, for 200/250km of autonomy and an hyper9 engine (not suitable for this conversion). In this case, the autonomy is very lower, so you need 2/10 of the battery and a different type of engine. Given that the greatest part of the costs are the batteries, I think it's not unrealistic the price I posted.
But I could be wrong.

 

[and_pir]

Here more:

Hy Solar Kit

Gianfranco Rizzo

www.youtube.com

This is very interesting:

eProInn

Il prof Gianfranco Rizzo da il suo personale benvenuto a SMAU | Italy RestartsUp in Berlin powered by ICE and SMAU! Ricevimento presso l'Ambasciata Italiana a Berlino! 😁 🇮🇹 🇩🇪 Sorrisi e chiacchiere...

www.facebook.com

In Berlin... So why they are still at point zero after 3 years? They should know that in germany "IT" is possible...

 

[and_pir]

I am interested. T5.2 CFCA

I don't think a 4motion can be converted, sadly. You need the real axle free.

 

[and_pir]

In this video there is the Polo Hybrid

1:53 (full hybrid, not like the e-tsi garbage that VW sells )

LIFE-SAVE Project

www.youtube.com

 

[gervais]

Given that the greatest part of the costs are the batteries, I think it's not unrealistic the price I posted.

It is an unrealistic dream.
1.If you want to use E motors for a big VW T5 hybrid solution, (the mentioned 2x 80HP) you´ll need a 15kWh battery as a minimum, even for short range, additionally, huge currents will fry smaller sizes.
2. But you´ll need even more money for the mechanical conversion, motors, controllers, workmanship and approval. Check above. EMV testing alone will be about 2000-3000€, required in Germany and needs to be done individually.

PS: The very funny thing in these Promo videos is the proposal to use PV panels for battery charging. You can test this yourself, pretty cheap: Mount a PV panel onto your daily driver together with a Victron MPPt (with BT monitoring) and check, how much energy you get. It´s easy to calculate bigger panel sizes with this cheap experiment. Big laugh..

 

[and_pir]

EMV testing alone will be about 2000-3000€, required in Germany and needs to be done individually.

Why? Are you sure of that rule? It's kinda stupid... if what you say is true, it would work this way:
1) I want to tune my car to get more ps, I can buy a kit with a new map that is already tested with ABE or gutachten or whatever (that's how it works) and I will be fine; while
2) if I want to tune my car to lower the emissions with an electric engine, I need always and indivial test because the kit maker can't make a test that worths for every kit.
It's stupid and very unfair too.
With such a rule, just the "pour parler" about this kind of conversion is a loss of time.

It is an unrealistic dream.
1.If you want to use E motors for a big VW T5 hybrid solution, (the mentioned 2x 80HP) you´ll need a 15kWh battery as a minimum, even for short range, additionally, huge currents will fry smaller sizes.

You can get smaller, cheaper engines; however, here the engine size doesn't matter with mileage, so I would get the biggest possible just to be "safe" at the light stop; drag time ya know... XD


Yeah, I said that the panel thing is pure ideology... of course you need to plug the car to charge the battery pack. Also, how long do you think such panels would last? How much time before an old child, so called "minor", will come up to break them down cause "was boored, it's fun and I don't risk anything"...
However the panels are the cheapest part, beside than irrelevant.

 

[gervais]

how long do you think such panels would last?

No, the panels will last. We never had PV vandalism. My oldest are from 99, still 80%. Nevertheless, besides camping app, useless @ cars.

With such a rule, just the "pour parler" about this kind of conversion is a loss of time.

No. Its just a matter of costs vs. benefit.

And yes, you´ll need an individual EMV approval for E-conversions of any kind. You can´t afford a type approval for a complex hybrid system. This requires several samples, eng. approval and 50k€ will not do the job.

Learn about product certification, safety regulations (e.g. for HV systems) and you won´t watch silly youtube videos anymore.

Other issue: Replacing or modifying a rear brake of an approved car with some wheel engine will require lots of engineering, testing and official approval, if the goal is sale or operation within EU.

here the engine size doesn't matter with mileage, so I would get the biggest possible just to be "safe" at the light stop, ya know...

Needs bigger controller, bigger batteries due to max. currents. You can check this @ the US EV boards. Look e.g. for the Prius mods and you´ll learn about batteries, motors, controllers. Get @ least into the basics and you´ll realize why these start ups, like the one you promote, stay small or fail @ all. In my opinion, just an EU Fund thing which isn´t able to exist by itself.

 

[and_pir]

Meh...
I mean, tuners give you 30+ps over the teil1 and nobody say a thing. Carmakers cheat on emissions and these tuners can freely pump up your small 4 bangers... do they really think that I buy that their maps make the same emissions of a stock map?
I never heard about all the tests you say, especially they don't make sense when compared to the easy tuning practices that happen in germany.
The conversion of classic cars as full electric vehicles is already a reality, even in italy where bureacracy is a kind of nightmare. The problem with hybrids is to make both the termic engine and the electric engine work together. For example, a multimodal conversion, in which you can use the termic engine OR the elecric engine (never both together), is already possible and is already sold.
However I'm not a tecnichan, soo.... let's keep these unconvertible vans out of towns.

[Even more happy about my VR6 , LOL]

No, the panels will last. We never had PV vandalism. My oldest are from 99, still 80%. Nevertheless, besides camping app, useless @ cars.

You must live in a nice place...
For what I see each time I "have to go through" a german big city is dreadfull... such some "nice" people...

PS: I'm not "promoting" anybody. I don't get money or favours. I just found this stuff online and then I thought that maybe we could kik their butts to make some good stuff for the people. Of course, converting the polos won't bring them anywhere.

 

[MarcusMüller]

Just a few notes regarding battery size:

An Audi eTron uses around 22-25 kWh/100km.
An Audi A8 plugin Hybrid has at most 45km range with a 14kWh battery.

To get 40km range a T5 will need a battery of 18-20kWh.

Only 80-85% of the battery capacity can be used.

That is a huge, heavy & expensive battery. It needs to be water cooled.
The eTron 95 kWh battery pack weighs 600kg.

 

[and_pir]

You guys keep on giving your attention to the vrong examples.
You don't have to take as example the full electric audis;... instead you should compare this to the toyta prius, or better, the toyota alphard (the ppl carrier version of the old hiace, not the actual new hiace sold outside Japan in countries like Phililppines or South Africa, that is more a cross between a transporter and a crafter) hybrid, that doesn't weights more than 2200kg as curb weight.
The first is from 20 years ago! and it weighted just 2000kg.

 

[MarcusMüller]

Well, a hybrid T5 MV with usable range will have an empty weight of at least 2800kg....

 

[Ohlie]

What about you are talking?
- T5 as a BEV (full electric car)? not for 3.000 or 4.000 Euros. Not enough range.
- T5 as a PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid) ? You would need an acceptable battery pack, a solution for the drive train. Too heavy, too expensive, not enough space
- T5 als mild-hybrid? there is an existing solution by a VW technical partner corporation.

 

[MarcusMüller]

Mild Hybrid is nonsense. Only lowers the fuel consumption slightly in low load NEFZ / WLTP cycle.
In real life situations for a heavy car pointless.

Looking at the PHEV solution there are so many problems to be solved - no way to do that without the capacity of the OEM:

- Recuperation / integration with the break system.
- Charge system for recuperation. To have usable recuperation up to 100kW charging through recuperation is needed.
- Charging - to charge a 15kWh battery at least a 7KW charger is needed. Otherwise charging just takes too long.
- Battery cooling
- Heater (Heat pump). Very important for a big car needing a lot of energy for heating.
- Certification

 

[gervais]

You guys keep on giving your attention to the vrong examples.
You don't have to take as example the full electric audis;... instead you should compare this to the toyta prius

Well, you announced within your initial post:

The car can work as:.......
2) fully electric car (think about driving your 2.5TDI in the downtowns where there is the diesel fahrverbot), 35/50km of autonomy, at 50km/h (it's up to the battery pack you choose, you can get even more...)

And we proved by calculation, why this just stays a dream, very expensive or impossible to realize, due to regulations as well. Nobody is going to offer this. Some of us (me as well) realized this already 20 years ago, experiencing, how much power even a light weight three-wheeler (City-EL) needs for operation. ;-)

 

[MarcusMüller]

Solar panels for electric cars don't work anyways.

To get 1kWp you need around 6-7 m². That would be peak power. With panels mounted on the car you will never get peak power.

With 500W you might be able to get 2-5% of the power needed to move the car. - On a bright summer day only.

 

[and_pir]

@Ohlie Thanks man, that looks very interesting.